Curse

UnChosen · Jun 07, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

The problem is that what people on forums consider a "problem" is probably a "fix" for the majority of players. Most people I know in game finds Ursan Blessing "barely sufficient" and Ether Renewal "impossible to use, checking enchantments is too complicated".

sph0nz · Jun 07, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

The problem is that what people on forums consider a "problem" is probably a "fix" for the majority of players. Most people I know in game finds Ursan Blessing "barely sufficient" and Ether Renewal "impossible to use, checking enchantments is too complicated".

So, you're saying the majority of players are bad at the game if they actually believe that Ursan is "barely sufficient" and Ether Renewal is "impossible to use". Clearly, Ursan is more than sufficient if it is used practically everywhere, including Elite missions that are designed to be more difficult than any other area in the game. Furthermore, maintaining enchantmetns is hardly anything "too complex"; keeping up energy should not be a problem unless you're being denied of it. If that is the case, something is wrong with you.

Call me ethnocentric or elitist if you will, but some people are just more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes.

Vazze · Jun 07, 2008, 03:02 AM // 03:02

I think anet decided to dumb GW to the level of 5 year-year old children because they think they can still sell a few copies to that group. Don't blame them, they have to make money somehow. But I wonder how many GW2 customers they are losing with these dumb modifications.

Skye Marin · Jun 07, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Some people called for an easier PvE game.

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=...UserId=5380397

They got it. Why would that change?

Kashrlyyk · Jun 07, 2008, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by sph0nz

...
Call me ethnocentric or elitist if you will, but some people are just more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes.

I would agree. I would say that the designers "are more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes" than you or Avarre or Yichi et al.. And I would say that changing the game to keep the majority happy is a much more rational and good change than listening to the very, very, very small number of idiotic "elitists", that apparently can not understand that GW would most likely have been shut down a long time ago, without that majority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

.... But I wonder how many GW2 customers they are losing with these dumb modifications.

Or to put it bluntly: YOU, ELITISTS, ARE NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE SUCCESS OF GUILD WARS, NEITHER IS PVP! And at the end of the day, I rather have ANet continue business, because they changed their naive vision, then fail by sticking to it.

Roughly 1855 people online in the forum. 10 care about the vision.
Roughly 1200000 players, which mean roughly 7000 cry about the deviation from the vision. I think ANet will survive, if you leave.

Why should anyone stick to a vision that failed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

...
The devs seem to have trouble grasping exactly what it is that makes their game fun and unique, and are rampaging around wildly trying to amplify that unknown like a blind porcupine in a balloon store.

No monthly fee and a fun combat system, that made the game fun for most players. But not their idiotic vision!!!! Please, stop being such an arrogant idiot. You sound like a die hard fanboy of DnD 2nd ed., that cries because they changed it into DnD 3rd ed.. I don´t care for your theoretical problem, that they left their vision.

Melody Cross · Jun 07, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

I am personally interested in knowing where some individuals got the idea that the community asked/wanted/wished for all these imba "PvE skills".

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...splay.php?f=19

Look through some of the pre-Ursan skill ideas if you can still find them. Sorry to burst any bubbles, but the "PvEers never asked for imab skills" argument stands up about as well as a wet noodle in a rainstorm. Most considered them joke threads. The OPs...best to ask them.

But I do not equate such requests only to PvEers. PvPers have the same problematic portion of their sect. Its endemic in life and video games. I call them The Gimmies. They don't want to earn anything, don't want to put forth effort that others have, don't like to sweat. They want it given to them. You can tell them easily by their cry: "Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie". They come in all ages, all ranges of society...and they appear to breed prolifically as their numbers grow so fast, a surprising fact since human sexual relations requires at least some physical exertion. Then again, we now have in vitro too. That could explain the seemingly sudden rise.

I'm making a point, believe it or not. And the point is, simply, that people who want to put forth the least amount of effort to get "everything" have no business playing games, online or otherwise. You put them on a basketball court, their laziness shines; ask them to run track and cramps abound.

Stick them in a tactical game requiring area and situational awareness and its no surprise that they flounder, want "their money's worth", and want the game watered down to accommodate them. Its no surprise that heads will butt when Anet caters to them. The competitive natured folks, the ones who did not buy this game just to do everything in a flower garden want-to-waltz-along-mash-a-button-pick-a-daisy style of play, do not like having the challenge of it toned down. Saying to them "just don't use that imba stuff then" is like saying "tie your hand behind your back for me". They are after all, if attracted to the original GW's play and not simply because it was without monthly fees, strategically minded competitive players.

I'm not saying all "casual" players are like that. But the numbers are growing. Was a time when I was very casual. I did not profess to want FOW, Did not waste energy on Urgoz, and avoided enviously leering at someone who had a Tormented shield because...they'd earned it. I didn't want to put forth the effort to get that item, it served no purpose other than looking pretty, and my character's capabilities did not suffer. So I went without. Happily.

There used to be quite a few people out there like me. They accepted the limits of their time, played the game, had fun, and didn't let elite weapon sets bother them. That's what we're really talking about here: making your doll look pretty. Because if it was in any way a question of wanting a "challenge" then, quite obviously, you would step up to that task instead of asking Anet to give you step ladders.

@OP: ER is imba. /votefornerf

GGs

EDIT: Do keep in mind, that I point no fingers at anyone, even though I pulled few punches precisely because so many Gimmies seem to have flocked to this thread. If you take offense at something posted above, look in a mirror to discuss your problems with their source, not to me.

Avarre · Jun 07, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

very, very, very small number of idiotic "elitists", that apparently can not understand that GW would most likely have been shut down a long time ago, without that majority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why should anyone stick to a vision that failed?

I do not know how to argue with these assertions because they blatantly disagree with logic and reality.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Jun 07, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

"Wtf @ welfare epix"

Yhalothar.

DarkNecrid · Jun 07, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Please, stop being such an arrogant idiot. You sound like a die hard fanboy of DnD 2nd ed., that cries because they changed it into DnD 3rd ed.. I don´t care for your theoretical problem, that they left their vision.

I don't know whether to laugh at you for calling Avarre an arrogant idiot or to laugh at your blatantly poor analogy.

I think I'll do both.

a) Avarre is one of the smartest people on these forums. (HEEEY he's a mod too... . ..)

and

b) the difference is, I can still keep playing 2nd Edition D&D, I can't play original Guild Wars anymore.

TheLordOfBlah · Jun 07, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

you're still probably running ursan, shut up.

Abedeus · Jun 07, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I guess that if anyone will have children and they will start smoking cigarettes/weed, they will say "Don't like it, don't use it, ma'/pa'!". And I guess it will be okay, eh?

Because, well, it's the same situation.

Quote:

because they changed their naive vision, then fail by sticking to it.

YOU ARE A SELLA, YOU ARE A SELLA, SELLA LOLOLOL SELLA LOLOL.

Quote:

Roughly 1200000 players

Halve, minus 50k banned, minus 50k not playing/bored and retired/never played more than 50 hours, minut Chinese bots.

samifly · Jun 07, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I would say that the designers "are more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes" than you or Avarre or Yichi et al..
*snip*
Why should anyone stick to a vision that failed?

Not really seeing any evidence that GW would have failed if they stuck to their original vision. or that it has failed at all. they have simply drifted away from it.

As for ANET being better decision makers on whats best for the game, most if not all changes have been taken from player input.
Most patches show evidence of little testing at all, and are only fixed cause we are the beta testers for them. stupid ideas like a caster class having 80 armor shows that ANET isn't the be all and end all for GW knowledge and understanding. It also sounds "elitist" (if we must go with that term) to say so.

deya · Jun 07, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

People are just too stupid to have PvE success without skills like Ursan Blessing, "Save Yourselves", and recently buffed Ether Renewal so A.net guys have to boost some skills thru the roof so that people can actually go out and hunt there stupid titles.

Nightmares Hammer · Jun 07, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

YOU, ELITISTS, ARE NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE SUCCESS OF GUILD WARS, NEITHER IS PVP!

Made me LOL.

Phaern Majes · Jun 07, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I would agree. I would say that the designers "are more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes" than you or Avarre or Yichi et al..

You have it partly right it should read "the designers SHOULD BE more qualified to make good, rational decisions." But if thats the case why are so many people leaving the game? I know quite a few people who have switched over to other MMO's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

And I would say that changing the game to keep the majority happy is a much more rational and good change than listening to the very, very, very small number of idiotic "elitists", that apparently can not understand that GW would most likely have been shut down a long time ago, without that majority.

Being in the minority doesn't make you an elitist, get off your high horse lest you fall from it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, get used to it. Changing the game just make people happy does NOT mean its a good change. It might be smart from a business perspective but if you ruin the game in the process, well lets just say thats not "smart".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why should anyone stick to a vision that failed?

You want a failed vision? How about, "Can I stop mashing 3 buttons and actually play the game yet?" I don't hate people who use Ursan. I could personally care less, but I refuse to use it. I don't enjoy the mind-numbing sensation of pressing the same three buttons over and over and over and over, with no thought to tactics or anything else. It is the very definition of a "failed vision" I actually recommend people DON'T buy this game because of it. Wow, when your player base is discouraging others from purchasing your game it doesn't get anymore "failed" than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

No monthly fee and a fun combat system, that made the game fun for most players. I don´t care for your theoretical problem, that they left their vision.

First, the no monthly fee rocks and will always be a major selling point, but hey guess what? IT WAS PART OF THEIR ORIGINAL "VISION." *gasp* The combat system used to be fun, until you had resort to 3 buttons to get a group for anything. And once again everyone is entitled to their opinions whether you care for them or not. But I admire your commitment of riding that high horse out! By all means stick with your belief that everyone who disagrees with Anet and apparently you by association is an elitist. But last time I checked elitist generally meant someone who bragged about how great they were at the game and did everything they could to keep the little guy down.

Mouse at Large · Jun 07, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Y'know, I don't suppose that amongst all the rants, arguements, claims and counterclaims, accusations of heresy etc etc etc. anyone has stopped to consider a shocking and disturbing scenario........

Could it actually be that there are thousands of PvE players who are happily using these "imba" skills and actually ENJOY playing the game with them?????.

I would offer the following thought. Classical symphonic music is the highest and best form of the art, therefore no-one should be allowed to listen to any other "debased" form of music despite any protestation to the contrary or assertions from anyone that they don't enjoy classical music and prefer another genre.

Pace

Phaern Majes · Jun 07, 2008, 09:07 AM // 09:07

The problem with that Mouse is, right now everyone can choose to listen to what they want. In GW you can't choose which nerfs, buffs, or anything else apply to your account. And there will always be people happy and unhappy with it. As I've stated it matters naught to me I've moved on, this game doesn't work for me because of the changes so I found one, several really, that do. If GW wants to create several servers that give people a choice on how to play (of course they won't and I'm not suggesting they should) then everyone can be happy. A server with no UB, a server with no nerf on SR, etc, etc.

So those who want it to change or be nerfed aren't really any different from those who are happy with it the way it is now. The only difference is whose doing the complaining. If things change then all the dissenters will be blissfully quite while all those happy now will start complaining. Its lose/lose in this case

@Melody Cross, very good post actually enjoyed reading it. Hit the issue square on the head with that one.

DreamWind · Jun 07, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I would agree. I would say that the designers "are more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes" than you or Avarre or Yichi et al..

Sadly I wouldn't when it comes to balance (which is what this thread is about). Nightfall is proof of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

And I would say that changing the game to keep the majority happy is a much more rational and good change than listening to the very, very, very small number of idiotic "elitists", that apparently can not understand that GW would most likely have been shut down a long time ago, without that majority.

You are implying that the majority wasn't happy originally. You are also implying that changing the vision was required to keep the majority. Both are false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Or to put it bluntly: YOU, ELITISTS, ARE NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE SUCCESS OF GUILD WARS, NEITHER IS PVP! And at the end of the day, I rather have ANet continue business, because they changed their naive vision, then fail by sticking to it.

LOL. I'm not even going to touch that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Why should anyone stick to a vision that failed?

LOL. Prove to us it failed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

No monthly fee and a fun combat system, that made the game fun for most players. But not their idiotic vision!!!

The things you mentioned were PART of their vision. Making PvE easy grind mode and destroying PvP were not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Could it actually be that there are thousands of PvE players who are happily using these "imba" skills and actually ENJOY playing the game with them?????.

I would offer the following thought. Classical symphonic music is the highest and best form of the art, therefore no-one should be allowed to listen to any other "debased" form of music despite any protestation to the contrary or assertions from anyone that they don't enjoy classical music and prefer another genre.

There were many thousands who liked Guild Wars a lot more how it used to be too. Personally I would have no problem with people who want to use inbalanced crap...if I had a choice to go back to the old days of Guild Wars.

Using your analogy...it is like all the new genres killed classical, and classical no longer exists. If classical still existed, people like me would be happy and wouldn't be raging at the morons who like rap (inbalanced garbage).

Sab · Jun 07, 2008, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Y'know, I don't suppose that amongst all the rants, arguements, claims and counterclaims, accusations of heresy etc etc etc. anyone has stopped to consider a shocking and disturbing scenario........

Could it actually be that there are thousands of PvE players who are happily using these "imba" skills and actually ENJOY playing the game with them?????.

No one is using the "because it's fun" argument because it's a terrible argument. One could use the exact same argument to argue the contrary with the same strength: If you say imba skills are fun, then I say imba skills are not fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I would offer the following thought. Classical symphonic music is the highest and best form of the art, therefore no-one should be allowed to listen to any other "debased" form of music despite any protestation to the contrary or assertions from anyone that they don't enjoy classical music and prefer another genre.

The obvious conclusion is that the pro-classical group should not determine what everybody else listens to.

However, this analogy is just a disguised form of the "because it's fun" argument - one could equally say a "debased" form of music is superior and offer the same assertions.

Cacheelma · Jun 07, 2008, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

No monthly fee and a fun combat system, that made the game fun for most players.

I bet you keep telling yourself "It's free. It's free. It's free." repeatedly while playing Guild Wars.

Does it really help make the game fun, though?

Really?

For real?

It doesn't seem to work for me, though.